Speaker 1 (00:05.39)
Welcome to the Interverse of Business and Life podcast. I'm your host, Barbara Patterson. This podcast explores the powerful connection between our inner world and how we show up in the world. We'll delve into the intersection of business, spirituality, consciousness, and personal growth. Through conversations with thought leaders, change makers, authors, and everyday humans, you'll hear real stories of transformation, aha moments, and the wake up calls that ignite it profound change.

My hope is that this is not another business as usual podcast, but that these conversations spark moments of resonance, insight and inspiration and open you up to new possibilities for your work and life. So let's dive in together and experience the rich multi-dimensional universe within.

Speaker 1 (00:54.658)
Hello, in today's episode, we talk about life changes, big bold moves, transitions, and how we can trust where life might be wanting us to go. How do we allow more of the unfolding rather than thinking it's up to us to have to direct it all and figure it all out ahead of time?

Today's guest is Jackie Moses. Jackie is a coach and a mental wellbeing expert. Jackie, in her beautiful way, invites us all to listen to what's alive within, to allow it to have more space, to trust the pace of life versus feeling like we always have to drive life. Without further ado, here's Jackie. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:46.05)
Welcome, Jackie. I am so happy to have you here. And for the continuation, you know, I just will share with the audience and the people listening that I saw a post where you were sharing about a recent move and your new life. And I'll save that, give you the chance to speak to that. But I resonated so much with what you were sharing that I reached out to have a conversation and we've been connecting over the last few weeks and

You have generously said yes to sharing yourself and your insights today. And I'm just grateful to have you here.

keep up is a pleasure.

Well, I'd love to just dive right in and I'm curious, as you know, the intent of this podcast is to really illustrate and point people to the understanding of both how their inner world is shaping their outer world and, you know, do they know who they are at their essential core and how that can be leveraged in our life and our work when we have that understanding. And so I'd love to ask you.

When did you first see the connection between what's happening inside and the outside life or what you're trying to create on the outside?

Speaker 2 (03:04.418)
Yes, sure. This was a very long time ago, so when I first became aware of it, I started to realize that something else was going on in my human experience. And I remember having lots of strong emotions about things and not understanding what was going on. Having these really strong emotions. I was in my early 20s.

and having these strong emotions and thought, God, if I keep having this, it was exhausting. Really, really exhausting. And I was feeling really insecure with it because I thought it wasn't right to have feelings at that stage. So I was always trying to fix every emotion that made me feel uncomfortable or insecure or not confident or not good enough. It felt like they always popping up. And I was trying to put the fire out.

And so I started to realize that, what if, what's really going on? I got curious about what's really going on and is there a way to navigate and live in a bit, in a different experience or in a better experience or with the same experience but have more freedom with it, I suppose. I didn't have that level of consciousness then. I just knew that I wanted to feel better. It was that simple. And I started going along to workshops, women or just personal development workshops or reading books like Louise Hay.

Debbie Ford, Dwayne Dyer. And when they came to London to do workshops, I'd go to their workshops or to their talks. This is like Marianne Williamson, you know, they would have a book, they'd come over to promote their book. And I'd go to alternatives in London where they used to do talks and then these same authors would go on and do workshops. And it's like a whole new world opened up. You know, it's like, I'm struggling with my feelings. I think I'm the only one.

and then you go to these workshops or you go to a talk and you meet different people and you're in a different community now and you realize like, oh, I'm not the only one. That's the first thing. There's nothing wrong with me. Well, I still feel things are wrong with me, but I'm not odd. And then the other thing is it's just like, there's a whole world of another way of looking at life. That's really what I've got. There's a whole new world of looking at life and I've been seeking, I mean, the whole motivation.

Speaker 2 (05:26.19)
for these workshops and going along to things and being curious. If I look back now, the motivation was, I want to feel that I belong in a world where sometimes I don't feel like I belong. I want to feel loved. That was a deeper motivation. I can talk about that now, but at the time, I just wanted to feel a bit better. I wanted to feel like I had some control over the emotions that kept knocking me off course.

Yeah, I can relate to that as well. And similar to you, I know it was first introduced to Leo Buscaglia and then that opened doorways to Wayne Dyer and a lot of other authors. And yeah, I think that that desire to want to feel better and bring our best self to whatever we're doing is a really common one. Just out of curiosity, when you say long ago, how many years ago? 20 years, 30, 40?

over 20 years ago, 25, 35.

Yeah, yeah. And I'd love to like fast forward and ask you how has that quest and that wisdom and the knowing that you have inside, how has that evolved and what does it look like to you now?

Well, it's evolved significantly. I call myself a lifelong seeker and, well, I used to proudly call myself a lifelong seeker, spiritual seeker and personal development. Always be involved in personal development and the human psyche, really. How we work. And then how it evolved was seeing that the more understanding that I have about myself,

Speaker 2 (07:08.268)
They say know thyself in most spiritual scriptures and this understanding of knowing thyself, you start to realise that, and it's an ongoing journey, that you've got more potential or you're less bothered about something or if you are bothered then you're not as bothered for so long. So you start to see these gradual changes happening, feeling more confidence. So what happened internally, was more stability.

internal stability, not always feeling thrown off course. So there was more. And I liken it to being like a muscle. The more inquiry and the more kind of, the more that I see of myself, the more that I realized that I've always been on course. Like this is what it looks like now. I've always been on course. I've always been stable.

I've always been resilient. Clarity of mind is always available to me. And peace, like deep inner peace and freedom, is my true nature. Like there's an inner stillness inside at the center of sometimes when life looks chaotic or a bit messy or dramatic. Rightfully so in some cases, you know, if things happen to our family members, we're gonna, well, you know, we may not have peace of mind.

But what I've learned now is that at the heart, that's my experience in the moment when I'm not feeling clear or when I'm feeling insecure or when I'm not feeling confident or when I'm not feeling not good enough. That's an experience that I'm having that's arising through me in the present moment. And like all experiences, they arise and they do their own thing and they kind of dissipate.

When I didn't know that before, in the past, I tried to fix that experience and to change that experience because I didn't like the feeling or I felt uncomfortable or I felt embarrassed by feeling a certain way or being a thinker. And then also, I used to take those feelings and experience as personal. So that meant if I'm like that, that means it meant something about me.

Speaker 2 (09:24.184)
I'm not confident if I feel like that, or I'm not smart if I feel like that, or I'm not resilient if I have certain feelings. I don't see that as the case anymore. I see my emotions, we have a range of emotions as human beings. They come and go. It's part of being a human being. Nobody, and I've worked with many, many people, nobody gets away with not having a range of experiences. And when we do, and when I've tried to

not have certain feelings or emotions, like this range of human experience, and try to control it, what I found is that I numbed myself down, innocently. It's like an innocent numbing down. And so what I see now is who I am, and the source of who I am, and the essence of who I am is constant, stable, peaceful, calm, has all the answers that I need, and it's filled with

infinite wisdom.

And so what is your relationship to your feelings at this point? So I love the distinction that you've seen deeply that those are temporary experiences and beneath that is that core stability, that place to find yourself, find peace. So if feelings aren't telling you something's wrong or you're not good, what are they? What are they? What's your relationship to them now?

So before I answer about what I'm seeing differently about emotions, I want to share a bit of background. I've spent many years doing personal development and exploring things, as we've spoken about, Barb. And one of the most life-changing experiences I had was coming across an understanding called three principles, or the principles of well-being. And so I've had many shifts since then.

Speaker 2 (11:18.306)
but that was very significant for me. And so what that's done now is I really see life as, or my life, as sacred. And I think us as human beings, all of our lives are sacred. And that every single experience that I've had in the past or what I think's been done to me unfairly or any experiences that I feel like, I wish it didn't happen.

I see that all now as part of my sacred path or another way of sometimes I call it as my divine path. Like I see that I was, I came to this earth to have an experience and then I forgot that I was coming to have an experience. And so what I see now is that, wow, like the other day I hear a long-term friend of mine, I realized that, right, I don't think this person

actually as a friend and I got to see that. There was a lot of manipulation and just disrespect and I just thought, I just woke up to it, it was very painful and I see that she came in my life, came back into my life to show me like, are you going to allow this to happen again or do you want to have different relationship?

boundaries and so yes it doesn't mean that I'm going to continue the relationship with the person you know it doesn't it feel I feel like it's complete now but what I've got to see is like I'm more aware of what works for me what doesn't work for me and I'm very very good with boundaries but there was another level I had to see a level of me loving myself and taking care of myself and my well-being it's my reason for being here so if I see my experience as sacred then

When I have an emotion or emotions, they're part of the sacred experience. They are arising, coming up for me, maybe to inform me or to tell me something or just to get my awareness. Maybe there's some trauma there that I've overlooked and now I'm ready to be able to deal with it. And so I just see it as, may not like it, the feelings, it's not a matter of like or not. I'm just seeing what I see emotions as. They arise in

Speaker 2 (13:35.63)
my awareness, they arise in me. And one of the things I loved about the understanding of the three principles is that I got really to see that my experience is happening inside of me, rather than me thinking it's a person, it's an event, it's politics, it's what I've got in my bank account, it's what someone said to me, or where I think I am in my life. The feeling that I'm having is, if I really look at it on a logical level, is happening inside of me, based on my perception of

what is I see happening. So the benefit of seeing that is, is one that I'm able to see what's coming up, there's more awareness, without thinking something's wrong. And then there's also an opportunity to just be curious, rather than she made me feel like this. And you might do that for a while, but it's really back here. What is happening here? Because it's the only place we've got any control, if we've got any control, but it's only place.

there is that kind of level of, where we can do anything about it. We can't do anything about other people's emotions or how they're behaving sometimes, but we can reflect and see what's occurring for myself or ourselves. So when emotion comes up, I just become aware of it, get curious, I sense it in my body. So that's another thing that's changed. It'd be all in my head before, all up here. It would be,

I'm feeling this, why am I feeling this? What's wrong? Or let me look, if you're into personal development, you'll be into what can I do to change it? Might not be that conscious about it, but it'd be something about let me change this. And I see that just being aware of it and tuning in and being with whatever emotion arises as much as I can. That's why I say to my class, as much as you can. Because...

When I try to change my emotions or get away from them and run from them, which I've done most of my life and most like most of us have done, and I still do on many levels. I'm just talking about what I'm seeing and it has been really powerful for me now. When I'm able to stay with the emotion and be with the emotion, the freedom that I'm looking for when I run away and the peace that I'm looking for when I run away and being settled in myself when I run away, that's what I'm really running to, being peaceful, settled and comfortable.

Speaker 2 (15:58.826)
is through being with what's coming up. Because I see what's coming up now is coming up to be healed, is coming up to be seen. I'm very interested in like shadow work and, you know, I'm trained in psychosynthesis coaching. so meeting, seeing the wisdom and intelligence that's inside of that experience. It might be that.

I feel like I'm not being seen in the world and I might have emotion about that or I'm afraid about going out into the world more and often there's some inner work to do that I might be afraid of going out that's being resistant to going out, to you going out because they don't feel safe and the more work that I do where I can know that that internal safety that I'm looking for is already there and I have some thinking and some patterns around it that make me feel that

I'm not safe in the world. And so that inner work, the feeling, I wouldn't know that unless that feeling had come up, that fear had come up or feeling insecure about something. It comes up and it's informative. We can use it. Like it's the sacred nuggets, gold, that we can use in our own self-exploration if we choose to, either on our own, if we're trained enough to do that or we've been doing it long enough.

And I also like to do it with someone else who's holding the space for me, because I find it's very powerful when someone's holding the space. I always say, I can't see the back of my head. And so when I'm working with someone, co-buddying or my own coach or guide, spiritual guide, they get to reflect that back to me that I might not be seeing.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And I so many nuggets in there and I love to just take a couple of them at this moment. And the first is I think that distinction that you're making between allowing the felt experience of it versus the staying in the mental analysis of it, you know, and for me that differentiator, that nuance of being able to tell the difference took some time.

Speaker 1 (18:13.708)
because my mental game, I believed, was part of the reason I did so well. And so my analytical processing mind was very ready at any time to jump in. And so being able to allow myself to feel that feeling without interpreting it, without being so quick to diagnose it and then strategize it, and that.

I really think is beautiful that in the sensation and the allowing of it, it moves through us. And then what happens is that deeper intelligence is available to us. And so that relationship of the allowing and the experiential nature of it, but at the same time, letting wisdom emerge versus the coping I had of my mind or the quickness, you know.

of my mind was such an important piece. And then the other thing I want to just touch base on what you said is the wisdom is often after, like the wisdom is what we're aiming for. What I heard in your story was if we just responded from the feeling and what we think it is initially, we might be less effective, right?

But when we see that all of it is pointing us to something, maybe the, you know, helping us see something that will wake us up more fully, allow us to see the deeper truth, then we can hold that all with, what's it, how's it helping me? What's it pointing me to? How does it want to serve me or wake me up more fully? Is that a fair recap of what you were saying, Jackie?

Absolutely. I think on the last point you made, I think it is a very different way of being with yourself. So what we're talking about is inner relationship with ourselves. What I'm talking about is an inner relationship with myself, a deeper inner relationship. And there's different levels and different levels. I wouldn't say levels, there's no levels, but there's different awarenesses for argument's sake. So there's different levels of awareness. The truth is there isn't.

Speaker 2 (20:26.862)
you're just seeing what you're seeing. I think this, I find this the most important and exciting part of life. And I always have done from very young. My mum said when I was young, I said, I want to sit on a couch and speak to a therapist. And she said, why? And I just said, because they listen to you what you say and they don't say anything. Then I wanted to be a psychologist. So I'm on my own. I've been on, I'm now doing work where I'm working with many different types of people.

from executives to doctors to I've worked with so many different types of people and what I love about the understanding of the principles when I first came across it was on the inside we are all processing and experiencing life in the same way like we're looking at into the world we think.

the world is happening out there, out. You we point, we can point to that person, you point to that person that cut you up in the car, you can point to the miserable person that was in the bank or whatever, or the beauty of life. And we can say, and so what happens when we see life from the outside in, we then want to try and change life. We then think.

If I change that person and if I fix this thing in my life and if I fix that thing in my life, I'll be all right, I'll be happy. Because that's all we want to do is feel good. We want to feel stable and we want to feel at peace, in a peace, because we know there's a level of freedom and self-expression that we know we're our best when we feel like that. So everybody wants to feel like that. And we remember when we used to feel like that as well. So it's a remembrance that we're always trying to get back to. And so...

When we start to realize that, life, there are things in the world, and if we look at them as stimuli, that the experience is happening in here. I'm feeling that, I'm having the feeling. And so what if there was another way or just a slight different direction of looking at life where you can see that.

Speaker 2 (22:40.014)
It's okay that you are 100 % resource, but we've forgotten that or we haven't been taught it. That you, I am and you are, the world, everybody listening is, has 100 % innate wellbeing and it's covered with shit. Like covered with like all this thinking, covered with so much conditioning and thinking that.

We're so removed from it. We think we haven't got it. We think we're broken. We think we're lost. It doesn't matter what's happened to it. I've worked with so many different types of people. It doesn't matter what's happened to you or what experience you've had. When I'm working with someone, I can be with the compassion of what has happened. And I hold space for everyone's experience with love.

and understanding. And in my head, I hold the space of you're not broken.

Yeah.

You were born inherently resilient, with peace, with clarity, clarity of mind, creativity, so resourced. And we're looking for answers a lot of the time out in the world. And really, when we start to realise that the answers and the wisdom or your gut feeling is all there, but it's kind of covered.

Speaker 2 (24:05.24)
with the way we've been trained from school, conditioning of the world, societies, our families, it's been hidden and kind of pushed right down. And it's not the focus. And so if it's not the focus, you're not going to think it's important. And so the work that myself and you do, is that we realize that that inner landscape is rich.

And that is going to, that is, when we navigate that or learn on a life-learn journey, the more that we learn to navigate from this place, we start to see that, yeah, there's stuff happening that isn't right. There's stuff happening to me that's not right. But we can navigate it with, I might want to leave my job. Or if I'm working with people at work, they're overwhelmed or they're burnt out.

They think they've got no options. It looks like you've got no options when your mind's full. It just looks like, what do I do? It's very smart people that manage companies. Down to kids in schools, it looks like, what do I do? But when your mind's clearer, you'll just get an idea, like bang, right, after a few sessions. Or I'm feeling calmer, I'm feeling more grounded, I'm not feeling so unsafe within. And then what happens as part of our human design is that...

your instinct will tell you something. So when I talk about wisdom, I'm talking about inner knowing beyond intellectual knowing. So intellectual knowing can only take us so far. It's like if you're trying to work out a problem, intellectual knowing is great. mean, if I need logical knowing, it's great. If I need, going abroad, I'm traveling on Wednesday, I've got to book my ticket, needed to use my mind for that, I need to make sure my mind's working so I get on the plane. Okay?

make sure I bring all the right, we need our minds, I needed logic to get onto this phone. So it's all relevant. But that is not the only intelligence that is available to us. And so when I talk about wisdom, we're talking about an intelligence, divine, universal intelligence beyond our psychological understanding and intellect. that, that...

Speaker 2 (26:15.116)
that universal, in principle we call it divine mind or universal mind, that universal intelligence is like electricity that you can't see. It's available but you can't see it. And the more that I've been able to tune into this

intelligence beyond the mind. This intelligence that was available before I was born. This intelligence that created my body, allows me to speak, allows me to breathe, allows me to blink, that created me to be brown. It's kind of here. But there's an intelligence that created all of that and creates all living things. The more we start to understand that there's something more to life than just what I think, then we can be curious. Because a lot of the time what I'm thinking, it doesn't even turn out to be the way I thought it was going to work out.

So after a while you start to feel that you can't rely on your mind and then you start to feel insecure like can I trust myself? Really what we're saying is can I trust my mind, my logic all the time and the answer is no. Well you get to your own conclusion about that but for me I realized no my mind will tell me lots of things.

My mind will tell me I'm not good enough. My mind will tell me they won't like me. My mind will tell me I can't do this. I can't charge that amount. So powerful.

Yeah, I'm curious, you know, can you share a pivotal moment or a transformation that you've had that shifted how you show up in your business or maybe unexpectedly changed the direction of your work? Can you share how that deeper wisdom made itself known, what you saw and how it shaped the practical part of your business?

Speaker 2 (28:03.5)
Yeah, one very significant thing that I remember a couple of years ago was relaunching my business, my coaching business, and realizing that I think I need clients. Now, most people, when you're running a business, a business needs clients to operate, work.

But what I really saw underneath that top layer of need was, and it was a really pivotal moment in a workshop, was the need that I'm feeling and that kind of, nobody wants to have that feeling when you're in business or you think you need more clients, but it will happen in business, especially when you're working for yourself. Or going in a different direction and starting again is, I thought, oh, I had this feeling, a really uncomfortable feeling. didn't really, I wasn't aware of it. I was just having this kind of felt-sense experience.

And then I realized my mind, the pattern of my mind was, you need clients, you need clients, you need to get clients, and there's a certain way to get clients. And what I really saw was deep down, when I did turn inward to the inner work, is I think that if I get clients, that that is going to make me feel better, that my wellbeing is dependent on

I don't get me wrong, I do want clients. But there was a deeper hold on me, which was, I'm gonna feel better when, and I think we can all relate to this. I'll feel better when I get my perfect relationship, or I'll feel better when I get my perfect home, or I'll feel better when I get my perfect clients and charge my perfect fee. And I really saw that grip on me. I'd seen it in other areas, but I hadn't, and it's so subtle. And as soon as you see it,

It's like the grip kind of just goes shoo, because it kind of gets exposed. Not in a horrible way, but you get to see it. You can see it with compassion.

Speaker 2 (29:57.398)
I've forgotten where my wellbeing is. My wellbeing is here and I'm putting it externally again. So that was recent in my business. And so the change that happened, and I spoke to my coach about it at the time, and the change that I saw is like, well firstly, my wellbeing is not dependent on anything outside of me. The other thing that I got from seeing it was a level of freedom, remembering where my wellbeing comes from. Really remembering that.

reconnecting to that, what I forget. The other thing that I got was so much freedom talking to people that were interested in what I do. Wasn't trying to make them be my clients. I wasn't trying to sign them up. I wasn't trying to sign them up and I just had so many beautiful conversations where I could really serve freely without me trying to get someone to be my client.

That piece around, I think it's a great example of where it looks like the relate, you know, getting clients is a justified concern if you're a business owner, right? And yet what you're really speaking to is there's a difference when fear, insecurity, misunderstanding is shaping our strategies.

for that, for growing our business. And when a deeper solid knowing of our okayness, no matter what, is informing our strategies. You know, I can see that when I'm in fear and reactive, it's like I can get busy with the five things I have to do. But what's always fascinating to me is when I'm less anxious about it and just solid in myself, the creativity, the nudges.

the opportunities are very different than between those two states. So I love that example. And I know from our recent conversations and following you that you've recently made some choices about slowing down as well as where you live and that doing your work from a new home right now. And I'm wondering if you could share what was the inner process that happened? What was that and how has that shaped

Speaker 1 (32:17.782)
you your lifestyle and your work at this.

Yes, I'm in the Caribbean. I'm in Grenada where my parents were born. What really changed was I started to feel more comfortable trusting the nudges, as you spoke about. Trusting my wisdom, like really, what do I really want to do? Not what I think I should do, not what I could do, but what do I really want to do? And it's a significant change for me because three or four years ago,

I would, I was saying I'll come here for longer periods of time, maybe spend six months here and go back to the UK when I'm retired, which is in six, seven years time. So it wasn't something that was on the cards. What changed for me was I remember, I'll tell you, I remember I was sitting at my office, at my desk, just coaching all day, going into the evening and I looked around.

It just went like this and said, I could be anywhere in the world. Where am I? And I really got tuned into my felt experience. So I looked around and I just got really present to what do I know to be true right now? Leaving.

Sitting in front of a script, there's a computer here. I'm in a room, there was a bed in there. And then what else? Four things that we call walls and a ceiling. That's what we label them as. In this world where we label things. And I was just sitting there and I just kind of tuned in to myself and thought, thought just came to my mind, I could be anywhere in the world. I could be anywhere in the UK first. I would never have thought about setting my home. Because I had just refurbished it and I loved it.

Speaker 2 (34:07.854)
lots of space and then a little bit down the road I put my house on the market. Me? Putting my house on the market? No, I can't do that yet. So I put my house on the market. I had so much freedom around it before I was like going back and forth, should I do it now? Should I wait bit longer?

looking at the market, having the market predict what I was going to do. Boil cut one day, rang the estate agent. Life was just happening. Ranged the estate agent, put my house on the market. They came back to me a month later. Let's put the price down. said, no, you priced it two weeks ago. Let's stick with it. And I had a load of people come through my home and lots of people giving me global offers. And I just said to the agent, I'll take it off because I'm not, it doesn't really matter. But I was really interested. I started to experiment. This was like an experiment.

for me. I'm like, wow, I've got a lot of freedom with these, whether I sell it or not, you know. And then you keep hearing things about what's going on in the world. But what I really, I focused on was tuning into that inner peace that's inside of me, that every day, throughout the day, just remembering where my presence of stillness and what's real about my reality. What's real is my internal and thought experience. Fast forward, I sell my home.

and then I come on holiday for nine weeks. So, you know, I thought, okay, I'll take a long stay out here, come for nine weeks, and I've got to come back, got to come back to work. But interestingly enough, I was feeling quite tired.

I had been on some amazing courses and I was feeling tired now that I needed to slow down. They're quite fast paced and great courses and great achievements, but I just thought this is not sustainable for me. And fast forward, I came and I thought I'm gonna slow down. I'm going to rest.

Speaker 2 (35:56.578)
make rest my priority and yeah the rest is history I've been here nearly six months and it's all based on me trusting I call it my experiment Bible I've been living like this for a while it's trusting that life whichever way life unfolds is the right way for me and whichever way life unfolds or whatever arises with with me I have the resources inner resources and the mental capacity to know that

my level of safety and my level of feeling okay in the world. I know where it is.

Yeah. And I think the letting the ideas of what being a business owner, what will make a business work, not we work, letting that fall away and really listening, you discover, wait, I can adjust things. can, can move. can sell things that, you know, five minutes ago looked like a bad idea or weren't even occurring to me. Right. I can move somewhere and create.

a business and I know, as you know, I spent last year in Scotland and it was an amazing experience because it wouldn't be true to say that there wasn't a flux in my business that adjusted with that move, but there were increases in some areas and things slowed down in others. So in a macro level, it was such a beautiful realization for me to see that

my work and my flow adjusted to what life had on offer for me. So I could relax and let the natural flow and realignment of that take place versus obsessing or worrying about it. And then similar this year, I moved back to St. Louis to chip in with my mom for her care when she fell. And for those that know, she's doing fabulous, so all is well.

Speaker 1 (37:56.558)
Coming back to St. Louis was nowhere in my radar. Yet, because of what I saw and what you're sharing, I was willing to listen more to where the natural flow was, to where the natural momentum was. And as a result, I settled in much quicker. I was able to hear what was more in alignment for me. And as a result, there have been shifts, but some of them have been really lovely and surprising and opportunities.

I know that that fear that if I don't do exactly what's worked in the past, all, you know, everything will fall apart was real for me. Or if I don't follow the best strategy of the best known people who are making it out there, that it won't work for me. But really coming back to what you said about trusting the nudges and the wisdom.

coming through you. What's universal is that intelligence. It comes through us in an individual way. learning to trust that and follow it, I know for me has been such a gift and continues to be. I still get gripped by trying to get it right, but overall I feel like more and more I'm allowing what feels in alignment to me to present itself.

Yeah, I love that what you're saying is most of my life has been about planning and strategizing what's next for me or my family. And I just don't know what's next for me. And because I only think I know what's next for me. My mind is telling me what it thinks is next for me.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's just such a profound invitation for all of us and you know that what does that exploration of who we are at our core, that essential nature have to offer us and coming back to that, letting that be an anchor and inform more of our doing I think is just a wonderful invitation, Jackie. And I'm curious as we kind of wrap things up today.

Speaker 1 (40:07.35)
Two questions. One is just, there anything that you haven't had a chance to say that's present for you that you'd like to? And then the second piece is I'd love to share with people how they can follow you, join you, learn more about you. Absolutely. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How amazing to let that idea fall away.

and discover that it's possible to do that. And I think so many people will be inspired by that in particular, Jackie. But I'm grateful to you. You've shared so much wisdom and insight. And thank you for being present and sharing your wisdom with us all. And we will have on the show notes page how people can find you and follow along your journey. And if they're interested in working or exploring working with you, how to do that as well.

Thank you so much, Jackie. I love it. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (41:09.932)
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