00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;05 Speaker 1 Oh. 00;00;05;08 - 00;00;32;20 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Universe of Business and Life podcast. I'm your host, Barbara Patterson. This podcast explores the powerful connection between our inner world and how we show up in the world. Will delve into the intersection of business, spirituality, consciousness, and personal growth through conversations with thought leaders, changemakers, authors, and everyday humans. You'll hear real stories of transformation, moments, and the wake up calls that ignited profound change. 00;00;32;26 - 00;00;55;00 Speaker 1 My hope is that this is not another business as usual podcast, but that these conversations spark moments of resonance, insight and inspiration and open you up to new possible lives for your work and life. So let's dive in together and experience the rich, multi-dimensional universe within. 00;00;55;00 - 00;01;26;14 Unknown Hi. In today's episode, I speak with Kirk Souder. Kirk is an executive and leadership coach. He works with high impact leaders, really helping them align to work with more impact and more meaning. He has been a founder of a marketing agency, a branding agency that also helped organizations like Mattel and Google and Netflix really step up in a more visionary way around their brands and their work. 00;01;26;14 - 00;01;46;09 Unknown in today's conversation with Kirk, he shares a very personal story about a big decision he had to make, and that decision was to amputate his leg. That decision, as you might imagine, has led to a lot of other really amazingly helpful, profound and insightful realizations for him. 00;01;46;15 - 00;02;17;09 Unknown It absolutely has informed the way he works with others. And throughout our conversation and our dialog, we really explore themes around decision making, around letting go of identity, letting go at times when we're feeling really attached to something, and the value of stepping into the unknown. We talk about our essential, deeper nature, and that the more we can have a relationship to that and knowing of that, how much it can inform our decisions. 00;02;17;12 - 00;02;30;20 Unknown That's just a very high level look at our conversation. We go in a lot of different directions, and I think you're going to find it as meaningful and interesting as I did. So without further ado, here's Kirk. 00;02;41;21 - 00;02;58;28 Unknown Welcome, Kirk. Thank you so much for being here today and agreeing to this conversation. I'm really looking forward to it. You know, as you were just saying before we jumped on, I think whenever we get on a call or a zoom, I'm always love where the conversation takes us. 00;02;58;28 - 00;03;22;09 Unknown So I'm excited to share that journey with the listeners today. Same as me, Barb, whenever we have these incredible chats, I'm always like, leave in a greater altitude than when I started. So I've been looking forward to this all day. Well, I, I'll just say and share with the audience that when I invited Kirk to be on his, he was on a few years ago. 00;03;22;09 - 00;03;58;18 Unknown And it's a wonderful episode, sharing about his leadership journey and his own work journey. But I'll I'll link that in the show notes. But as you're going to hear, Kirk had a personal story, a personal life event. It sounds so try to say it that way, but I don't, I don't I want you to want it to come from your mouth, but at the time that you were having to make some really difficult decisions, you unsurprisingly shared that journey with others and I was so touched and moved and it it opened me up. 00;03;58;18 - 00;04;21;26 Unknown Like your journey really did something for me that when we were chatting last week, I asked if you'd be willing to share that and kind of share the continuation. And so, unsurprisingly again, you said absolutely. So I think it might be worth it to just begin there. But understanding that there might be some precursor or context you want to bring to it. 00;04;21;26 - 00;04;48;22 Unknown But the story I'm referring to is really the choice and the decision point at which you made the decision to amputate your leg. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. So, just over two years ago, I developed a very resilient infection and, artificial joint that I had had I had, a long journey with cancer in my youth while giving a terminal prognosis at the time. 00;04;48;22 - 00;05;09;18 Unknown And the good news is that clearly I survived. But, you know, many things were done with my leg. I had had for a total knee replacement. And finally, yeah, just over a couple years ago, an infection came into that joint. And when that happens in an artificial joint, it's problematic. Lots of things have to occur to try and get it out. 00;05;09;18 - 00;05;35;15 Unknown I developed into sepsis. It was kind of a big deal. And, after a little over two months and in and out of hospitals, I had a major surgery every week. So 7 or 8 surgeries in that time. And, you know, I was looking at the future and I could see that there really was no end game to this, like, with what was going on. 00;05;35;15 - 00;06;05;29 Unknown You know, it could be another two years of going in and out of the hospital for all, like, for, like, you know, that journey with cancer many, many years before where I was given a terminal prognosis, gave me, you know, the biggest blessing in my life. And then I was able then to have a lens on life where it was kind of like, you know, am I using this time to the utmost that it can be used for in terms of aligning with what brings me alive in the world to do and so on. 00;06;05;29 - 00;06;26;03 Unknown And so when I looked at that future vacant and realized that that could very well be six months, a year or two years, five years away from my work and what I really love to do in the world. That was the tragedy. That was the tragedy in front of me. And then, you know, I just had this moment of clarity. 00;06;26;03 - 00;06;45;18 Unknown I was actually I was in the pre-op waiting to go into surgery number six. And the doctors proceeded to tell me kind of, well, here's what's going to happen when I get in there. If this happens, we'll do this. If this happens, we'll do this. And some of these things were like, you know, I spent a year in traction while we cleaned out your leg and all these things. 00;06;45;21 - 00;07;03;02 Unknown And my wife was sitting to the side of me, and I just had this moment of clarity where I said to the doctor, just time out a second, like. And I said, you know, my wife is the only one I really at to ask permission or what I'm going to put on the table. And my wife looked at me and she said, you want to put an amputation on the table? 00;07;03;02 - 00;07;19;19 Unknown I go, yeah, I'm going to put an amputation on the table. And that's what I said to the doctor. I said, go in. And if, if you can do something quick to make things a little better, great. If not just so me back up again and let's approach an amputation very consciously, doing a really great job with that, you know. 00;07;19;21 - 00;07;46;22 Unknown So that's what we ended up doing. And for me for for a lot of people, that can seem like a, a big giant like thing that no one would ever want to do. But when I looked at it in terms of, you know, the same calculus that I talked to my clients about, which is, you know, is what you're doing, bringing you alive, like life is short, like, is that happening for you or is it not happening for you and for me? 00;07;46;24 - 00;08;13;01 Unknown It got very clear I could spend, possibly spend the next two months going in at a hospital to save my leg, when in fact I didn't need my leg for what I do in the world. What brings me alive in the world. So if I can get over the that, you know, that first mental block that occurs with so many about this of like, you know, there's there's tragedies and there's like death and then maybe amputation is second to that for a lot of people. 00;08;13;01 - 00;08;34;21 Unknown Right. But for me, it was such a graceful way for me to get back to what really matters to me quickly, like, because literally and, you know, and, four days after the amputation and it's a high, it's a high left side above knee amputation of my leg. Within four days, I was back doing doing my work again. 00;08;34;21 - 00;08;58;18 Unknown I was coaching on the phone from the hospital room and in great spirits, you know, so I'm blessed with that. I think having cancer as a young man gave me a lens, and then the inner work that I've done in my life gave me the clarity to know that, like, this is actually a blessing. So many people with chronic disease don't get to just cut something away and be done with it. 00;08;58;18 - 00;09;21;05 Unknown And I got to and, you know, when I woke up in the recovery room, the first thing I noticed, of course, was that suddenly my leg was gone. And the next thing I noticed, though, was that I was wholly intact. There was no difference in me and what I define as me at all. I was in a different shape, but otherwise I was wholly intact. 00;09;21;05 - 00;09;43;11 Unknown If not even in a way wiser and stronger from it. Well, I mean, that's such a beautiful statement, and I can feel it. I can feel it when you say it. And I wonder though, like, what does that mean to you? What does that mean to you? Well, I think a lot of growth in life is simply the letting go of identities. 00;09;43;11 - 00;10;08;08 Unknown You know, I think, you know, we might identify as I'm a hard worker who works 80 hours a week, and I do this and that, and then faced with something, a conflict that is pushing that against its limits, we may be forced at that moment to say maybe that's not my identity. Like maybe I'm someone who's different than that, who who has a different ecosystem of work and life and everything else that where I can be even more productive, whatever it is. 00;10;08;08 - 00;10;29;29 Unknown So that's an example of letting go an identity. I think as we progress through life, we begin to if we are on the track of growth that I think the universe is pushing us towards, we begin to let go of identities more and more, to the point where maybe the last identity we can go is the identity with the body, the eye, the identity with a youthful body or whatever that happens to be. 00;10;30;02 - 00;11;05;26 Unknown So for me, like, it's so important in my work and I know yours too, Barb, that we, we we when a guide people to begin to identify with that part of them. What what that is into manageable by physical world circumstances. Because it is and because when our when people begin to identify with that, instead of on the idea that circumstances are can diminish me or can affect me and so on, then they begin to have a kind of freedom in their lives to create, and a level that they could never create before. 00;11;05;28 - 00;11;32;11 Unknown So for me to have that moment of like, oh, let me go inside, nothing's changed. I am wholly intact. That part of me and that part of all of us, that is, in the end, who we really are and is not only and dimensional and enduring, but also unlimited and its capacity to create on the planet. Right? So for me, like having that fun little experiment to say, well, wait a second, like, am I still all here? 00;11;32;11 - 00;11;57;20 Unknown And I was like, well, great, because that's what I work with people on all the time. Yeah. I mean, it's so profound in anchoring. And, you know, when you talked about the diminish, you know, I remember at the time you sharing that. So so feel free to add more to this. But you know, the doctors job was to try and save your leg at all cost. 00;11;57;23 - 00;12;23;12 Unknown Right. And, and sort of built on the premise that without it, your life is somehow diminished. Now in a very logical way. We could see that. Okay. You know, but what you're speaking to is really profound because you got really clear. No, no, what was diminishing your life was not being able to be in your work or be in your life in the way you want. 00;12;23;12 - 00;12;47;11 Unknown And, you know, as if you were willing to do that with an amputated leg. You were fine. And so I think that's a really beautiful. Yeah, I mean, that's accurate. If I was a Olympic medalist and the sprint like, then I could see where that would have impacted. And I may have said, okay, it's worth going on a little further to see what can happen here. 00;12;47;14 - 00;13;12;24 Unknown But for me, it just it didn't make sense. It wasn't logical to do that because I don't need it for the things that bring me alive and matter to me and my life at all. Yeah. And maybe just to broaden that, you know, we're saying your work, but the truth is, is that the quality of life you were living inside of hospitals and multiple surgeries was not the quality of life you knew was possible. 00;13;12;26 - 00;13;46;17 Unknown So, you know, so that idea that, you know, you could that, that all of a sudden outweighed the save your leg at any cost. Yeah. It's it, if I bought into the idea that reality is such that it is about saving your limbs at any cost, then I'd probably still be in the hospital two years later and still, you know, full of antibiotics and everything else, and and but it got it's like what moment of clarity. 00;13;46;24 - 00;14;17;17 Unknown And what is really interesting to me is maybe that clarity, like, seeped into so many other things in my life after that. Like after I got out of the hospital and, and began to kind of survey and kind of come back online in a way of like everything that was going on with, you know, in various fronts of my life, I became aware that there were 3 or 4 things that were these kind of energy drains and loops that these things that I, you know, was kind of invested in in a way and wanted to keep going. 00;14;17;17 - 00;14;41;17 Unknown And different kinds of like, you know, we were there these are architects who we were working with at the time on this place we were building and the various things that I could see that just were not working, you know, and whereas I, you know, I didn't have the clarity, I think, beforehand to see it through this lens of just like my leg was just something that was no longer working. 00;14;41;20 - 00;15;04;14 Unknown That was just at this point, taking energy from me in my life. I saw all these other things and began to, in a way, amputate them as well. And it's given me an enduring lens where I look at things through that lens of, of this something that is, you know, adding to the sum total of what I want to create or is it not? 00;15;04;16 - 00;15;24;18 Unknown And, you know, and it's given me a great lens, too, with people I work with, to have them be able to look at that in a very honest way. Yeah. And you know that piece of I'm curious if surrender played a part in any of this and if it did or did you what did you have to surrender? 00;15;24;19 - 00;15;53;15 Unknown You spoke about identity being potentially one thing. Well, and it's close to that, which is attachment. Right. If there was part of me that was still attached to the idea of a, a normal body, right, like a normal body. And there's parts of me that were attached to that, you know, the things that, would be easier still if I had two working legs. 00;15;53;15 - 00;16;17;19 Unknown Right. And there are there things like, like walking would be easier, hiking would be easier. All those things would be easier. But in the end, it's like what comes with that clarity does come up against those attachments still. And it's about like looking at that and saying, am I willing to surrender my attachments for the greater for, you know, the greater service of what I want? 00;16;17;22 - 00;16;43;29 Unknown And I think what's become so important with that is how we can be more discerning and action oriented. With regards to cutting away some attachments that we may have developed is to have real clarity on what is it that we want to create, right? What's the experience that we want to have? Because without that criteria, you know, how do we know what's an attachment versus what is really important to us? 00;16;44;04 - 00;17;06;02 Unknown Right. It's only with the criteria that we're able to do that. So to have really established in myself at the time, wait a second, like what is ultimately important to me right now, and does it serve me to keep hanging on to those attachments or to surrender that, to surrender those attachments inside of me for the for the thing that I really want to create? 00;17;06;06 - 00;17;37;13 Unknown Yeah, I think I, I love that because, you know, in, in very different ways. But you know, I can think about when I was first starting my business and I just had this idea of what it would look like because of my previous experience and my network, and certain things weren't moving in the direction that I thought. And I, you know, it was puzzling and, you know, it was something I was, you know, doing my best to figure out and really look like a problem. 00;17;37;13 - 00;18;06;22 Unknown And then one day I was driving and I just had this realization, like, wait a minute, do you really care who sits across from you? Like you just want to share and you want to make a difference and, you know, help people transform. And when I saw that, I was like, oh yeah, I really don't care. And in that just coming to what really mattered, like, oh, that doesn't that doesn't matter to me and not as much as wanting to share and make a difference. 00;18;06;22 - 00;18;25;11 Unknown And it was amazing because, you know, literally, I don't know the amount of time, but it wasn't long. It was like all these opportunities like, look like magically falling in my lap. That had nothing to do with what I thought I was supposed to be doing. You know who I thought I was supposed to be working with yet? 00;18;25;11 - 00;18;46;13 Unknown I think those were likely there all the time. But because I was so attached to the idea of what I thought I was supposed to be doing or, you know, it, I wasn't seeing it. And then to have that realization and open up new opportunities, all those opportunities made me better at what I did, better at what I do. 00;18;46;15 - 00;19;14;23 Unknown I love what you're sharing, because what I'm hearing in it is like, these attachments are these various aspects of our life that we're hanging on to, because often we think like, well, because that has merit. There's something there, right? But we find frequently when we finally get clear on what we want and begin to cut them away, is that there is a vacuum that gets created, that gets filled with something even more in alignment with what we really want in our lives. 00;19;14;25 - 00;19;18;29 Unknown Like when we have the courage to do that, inevitably that's what we find. 00;19;18;29 - 00;19;51;17 Unknown sometimes I think we're we're trying to make something happen or, you know, drive something in a particular way and it becomes difficult and challenging. And then I often, because of my background, go into, you know, the self-help, the personal development, the psychology and all of that, but it doesn't really create any new traction or new movement until, as you're saying, it's like, oh, wait, what if the problem isn't my behavior or my discipline or, you know, my marketing, right? 00;19;51;17 - 00;20;14;29 Unknown Like, what if there's a deeper question to be asked and you know, what is in alignment? Am I is what I'm trying to make happen in alignment? Or is there something else that wants to come forward, rather than what I think would be a really good idea? And I've already spent money on and time and effort and energy. 00;20;15;02 - 00;20;29;19 Unknown Yeah, exactly. When, you know, when you were describing the process before and you said the first question you asked yourself was where saying, do I, you know, is this really for me? And then you said, the next part you said was because this is what's important to me, and this is what's important to me, and this is what's important to me. 00;20;29;21 - 00;20;48;06 Unknown And then I saw you work the very process we're talking about, which is to say, okay, here's the question. Like, is this like, what am I doing here? And then, well, what's important to me? What's the criteria that I'm going to base my decision there on any. And that's what you did. And that's exactly what we're talking about. 00;20;48;09 - 00;21;14;29 Unknown I think, you know, real change and impact begins to happen in a, in a life and a business, whatever it is, when there is both clarity in terms of intention and what we want to create and aligned action with that. Like somehow those two things together create this clear signal that the universe creation, whatever you want to call it, other people just needs to respond to. 00;21;15;01 - 00;21;35;26 Unknown And I think when we hold on to things that are really no longer in service to that clarity, that it creates a conflicting intention, really. It's like, yeah, I really want this. But no, I don't really because I'm I keep choosing this thing over here. No, I'm, I really do. I'm serious. But I keep choosing this over here and things tend to then stay in stasis. 00;21;35;29 - 00;21;58;11 Unknown But when we really cease to do the actions that are not in alignment with what we're creating, that's when the good stuff happens. Yeah, yeah. And I think that can feel like a mystery. But really, the invitation is there's likely a lot of logical, rational reasons why, you know, like not letting go. You know, staying attached makes sense. 00;21;58;11 - 00;22;40;10 Unknown But if we can slow down internally, if we can go beyond the noise of the thinking and the, the, you know, sort of attachment, even in feeling to what's been going on and find that quieter still place within. Often I find that answer or the very next move, at least it is right there. And that's alignment. So we could be aligned to yesterday's wisdom, the the strategy that worked for someone else, the thing that worked for us in the past, where we can really only align with what is here today, in the moment, in the here and now and otherwise. 00;22;40;10 - 00;23;05;23 Unknown We're aligning with ideas, we're aligning with strategy. And again, not that we don't need ideas, we don't need strategy, but we're really talking about in those moments when things feel harder than or struggle or we're efforting or we're pushing more. It's such in my mind, those are just great opportunities to kind of invite, let me take a step back and, and listen more deeply. 00;23;05;25 - 00;23;28;28 Unknown Yeah. I mean, the struggle itself is, could very well be a signal that we are holding on to tools that were meant to get us to here, but they're no longer what is going to bring us forward. Right. And we know that that happens so much. The it's one of the ego's favorite little dances is the goal of something got me to hear then that's what I need to hold on to with all my life. 00;23;28;28 - 00;23;56;15 Unknown Not that I, you know, even if it feels like pounding the square peg into the round hole, I'm going to use this to keep moving forward right when that struggle, more often than not, as a sign that we're meant to let go, you know, it's interesting, right after the, that I had the amputation and so on, and we went up to where I am right now up north and Northern California, near the redwoods and sitting in a redwood grove and looking at the redwoods. 00;23;56;15 - 00;24;24;05 Unknown And I observe that, you know, redwoods, the limbs don't really start till about two thirds, three quarters up the tree. Right. And I start to look at that, and I learn that there's a really good reason for that, which is, you know, a redwood is all about like going up to the sky, like, these are these amazing trees that just are so straight and they just go right towards the sky, the highest, largest trees on the planet. 00;24;24;08 - 00;24;51;12 Unknown And what they do is as they grow their limbs, as they keep going higher, and the limbs that used to be up top become more underneath, they realize that, you know, they're not as much in the light anymore. They're not as high as they could be. So they voluntarily lose those limbs to use that energy to grow higher limbs up closer to the light, closer to the air that they breathe, the the moisture that they take in. 00;24;51;15 - 00;25;09;02 Unknown And it was like, oh my gosh, there's exactly the metaphor that we're talking. It's not even a metaphor. It's like truth, right? Which is, you know, if the redwoods said, no, I have to hang on to that. I have to hang on to those lower limbs that got me to there because they got me to here. So they're probably going to what's going to get me higher. 00;25;09;05 - 00;25;32;02 Unknown They'd be stunted. Their growth would be stunted. They be limited to how high they got. But they're intelligent. They're their reason for being is to go up. And so they're very clear now is when I lose the lower to gain the higher. Right. So I looked at that in my own life like here I did I did lose a lower limb literally in order for me to keep going higher. 00;25;32;02 - 00;25;54;24 Unknown That's what I did. And it's a great thing to to be able to talk to people about who are struggling with letting go of anything that like whether it's a tool or a process, anything that got them to a certain level, suffering the illusion that it's what's going to keep them from going up and say no, like the universe designed so that you let that go and higher ones become present. 00;25;54;27 - 00;26;24;05 Unknown Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, I think so many people want to have a new experience of themselves in their life or in relationship or in their business. They want to step into like new expression or new ideas or and yet that the very nature of that means we're shedding. We have to be willing to let go of something most identity or let go. 00;26;24;07 - 00;26;55;15 Unknown The needing to feel certain, letting go of being, feeling like we can predict the future. Letting go of what you know when you were sharing earlier, I. I also remembered that, you know, prior to starting my own business, I was an executive and definitely, you know, work and workaholism have been a part of my adult life and really how I saw my value in the world. 00;26;55;18 - 00;27;23;10 Unknown So when I let that job go to start my own business, I didn't realize that after about six months or so that that was going to be the identity that I was going to have to, like, meet full on, because I didn't know it at the time, that I obviously had some arbitrary idea of when I should be smooth, when it should be smooth, when I should know that this this risk in quotes paid off. 00;27;23;16 - 00;27;51;09 Unknown I'm going to be fine. I'm going to, you know, make money. And, you know, it was like all of a sudden you realize where your lines are, you know, I think it was about six months and seven maybe. And I was started to get really shaky and just feeling really unsettled. And as you're describing, similar, I just had this realization that I think my value and worth is totally connected to how I contribute in the world. 00;27;51;10 - 00;28;12;07 Unknown I didn't know how I was going to let that go. I didn't know how I was going to see what you so beautifully spoke to earlier. Like the inherent worth and value not being, you know, that's non-negotiable. That's not at risk. But I think that that required a letting go of all so many layers and you know, even some recently. 00;28;12;07 - 00;28;42;22 Unknown Right. Like there's always seems like another layer to the onion. But that that thinking and the idea that who we are is what we do or how well we do says something about our value, our worth, our okay ness. So yeah, I, I really appreciate what you're saying. Yeah, that's a big one. Right. Like because that's pretty deep ingrained in our culture that either what we are is what we do or, you know, it's a transactional universe. 00;28;42;22 - 00;29;10;24 Unknown Like we better be contributing so that something can be given to us back when, you know, you look at natural systems and you know, nothing else is operating that way. It's like there's always a flow. It's a reciprocal flow. But it's not like this transactional, intentional thing of, you know, like the, the, the, the honeybee isn't like doing a negotiation with the flower of how much nectar it's going to get versus how much pollen it's going to take to the next flower. 00;29;10;27 - 00;29;37;05 Unknown It's just everything is just doing its best to respond to its aliveness. Right? Like everything is just trying to be it to the fullest without an idea that there needs to be a transactional part to everything. Yeah, yeah. That's. Yeah. Yeah. And and listen, that desire to want to have my own business, to want to explore the way I could contribute all of that. 00;29;37;07 - 00;30;01;06 Unknown That's coming back to the we want a new experience, a fresh experience of ourselves. But we have to go beyond to your point, the going higher. I had to meet that part of me. And then, as you're saying, the thing that really helped me was to go in the direction of, wait a minute, what? What? Who even says, where did it even begin? 00;30;01;06 - 00;30;23;04 Unknown That somehow value isn't anything but inherent, like you're saying, just a part of our nature, you know? So, and, and, you know, listen, there are times I can still just for to keep myself honest, you know, there are times I can still get caught up in that thinking, but at some point, I'll definitely wake up. Well I'm curious. 00;30;23;04 - 00;30;43;27 Unknown Oh, go ahead. I was just say, I think we all still get caught up in old thinking. It just to me that's like, I hope the the point of all this with, you know, whoever's listening and beyond is isn't that, oh, we're going to get someplace where we never have these old thinking and these old, you know, constructs going on. 00;30;43;29 - 00;31;09;29 Unknown The truth is, we always do. It's a point is that hopefully through this awareness, we just spend less time there, you know, if we choose to. That's all. But I, you know, I always want to make sure people don't have a, this notion, this kind of I just kind of the New Age movement, whatever it is, brought this notion into the thing that, like, we're all like vanquishing the ego and all we're vanquishing old thought. 00;31;09;29 - 00;31;42;21 Unknown It's no old. Like we're we're in this incredible experience where thought is a part of it. And sometimes those thoughts are old and sometimes they're new. But the great thing is we get to have a vantage point of just deciding what we participate in or not. Yeah. Well, and and I think the gift in looking in the direction of the mind and thought and how compelling it can be, and then that there's this whole other world beyond our thinking and this innate resourcefulness that we have. 00;31;42;25 - 00;32;12;06 Unknown For me, one of the biggest values benefits in that are looking and getting more curious about that has been I feel like it's not that I over learn to overcome the harder moments, or that I don't have them anymore. It's like this idea of getting good at the full range of the human experience, and that has been so revolutionary because I'm, you know, not trying to sort everything out, but I don't want to go in that direction. 00;32;12;06 - 00;32;38;06 Unknown I won't like the way I feel. It's like, of course feelings come and go step in it. You know, to the same thing. Coming back to your tree analogy, we want to rise up. But sometimes the the thing that will allow us to do that is to get better at handling the moments we feel destabilized, and knowing we find our stability within the moments it looks like it's all we made. 00;32;38;06 - 00;33;00;04 Unknown Mistake or it's not working out. How do we go beyond the fear and the upset? Let it be. Be with it, but find our, you know, wisdom or our guidepost in those moments. Exactly. The question to me is like, what's true freedom? Like we all want the experience of like freedom in life, right? So what's real freedom is it? 00;33;00;06 - 00;33;26;17 Unknown I have somehow managed to kind of absolutely eradicate my ego, my mind thought, or is it? I have found a way to just find my center in peace, regardless of what things are happening in my life, what thoughts are coming up, what circumstances are around? And to me, that's the greater freedom. Because that's true freedom because then it doesn't matter what happens or what experiences come and go. 00;33;26;19 - 00;34;08;23 Unknown I still like and connect connected to that which really from all things come right? Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. How has what you've seen since that choice? How has that influenced informed your work? You spoke a little bit to it earlier, but how has it informed your work. Yeah I mean what I spoke to earlier is a big one, you know, which is, you know, again, even I reference my own life, which is just the, the having this greater new criteria, discernment of like looking at things and saying, you know, is this working like, is this really working for what I want to create? 00;34;08;23 - 00;34;37;25 Unknown And, and just having a much like I'm grateful. I'm just much more quick to pruning those things than in the past. Right. And I think being able to work with that, with people who are, you know, same people you work with, Barb, these high impact leaders who are moving, you know, want to create big things, but, you know, are still kind of attached to the lower limbs, you know, in terms of what got them places. 00;34;37;25 - 00;35;00;26 Unknown So with that, it's been it's been so great. It's been so great to be able to reference my own growth track with that and be able to apply that lens with what they're doing as well. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You know, as you with all decisions. Right. Even in the moment of clarity that we have, I'm trying to think how to articulate this. 00;35;00;26 - 00;35;29;17 Unknown But like every decision has an implication. So you know I know for myself I can get so like analysis paralysis when I have a decision that, you know, I think it's important. And then and it can keep me from really just taking action. And I always kind of joke, it's like, you know, I've, I've sometimes taken years to do something because I've, you know, trying to figure it all out ahead of time. 00;35;29;17 - 00;36;07;10 Unknown And I'm just curious, like, you know, if you could speak to no matter the choice we make, life still gives us opportunity to be on that right? Yeah, absolutely. You know, you're saying that like, as opposed to being in the paralysis of analysis versus moving and I just this, you know, I, I love looking at natural systems as, as things that express to us that the true nature of everything right away, if we really look at it and, you know, in nature there are these, these two different values that they're called the, I think the, the static coefficient of friction. 00;36;07;10 - 00;36;31;25 Unknown And there's the kinetic or dynamic coefficient of friction. And what they measure is the level of resistance towards something towards moving. Right. And so what they measure is when something is still it takes greater force to overcome the resistance when something is stationary. But if something's already moving, it takes less force to have that removed. The the static of the stasis. 00;36;31;25 - 00;36;59;08 Unknown Right. No. How brilliant. Like how true that is of us that that if we just. Even if we don't, if we don't, you know, the ego wants to always know what's ahead. But if we're willing to move without absolutely knowing what's what's ahead or with a certain amount of uncertainty, without being absolutely clear on exactly what it's going to look like, that that opens us up to so much, so much more possibility because we're already in motion. 00;36;59;09 - 00;37;21;05 Unknown There's less resistance to new possibility because we're already, you know, acting on our behalf and in this world, in this universe. And so that truth as it pertains to everything we do, I think is profound, you know, say it's I'm sure the same as you, Bob, when we're working with people and just having them be okay with like, just take the just take an action. 00;37;21;05 - 00;37;46;04 Unknown It's less about like how you see that connecting with exactly what you want to create. It's more about you just feeling this is an action to take right now and just see with that, with that birth I love, I think it's a parable by Lao Tzu. Or he talked about the monk and the Dark forest at night, and it's a monkey has a lantern over his head, and the lantern is casting just this one circumference of light. 00;37;46;04 - 00;38;05;28 Unknown And after that, it's just darkness. And of course, the ego of the monk saying, don't take another step because we don't know what's out there. And what if we step in the wrong direction for where we really want to go? But then that deeper, authentic self of the monk says, well, wait a second. If we take a step, doesn't the light move with us? 00;38;06;00 - 00;38;29;12 Unknown Like holding the lantern over the head and the ego has to concede? Well, yeah, the the light will move with us. And then the the authentic self of the monk says, well then with every step we'll learn more and more about this forest that we're in and we will, you know, each time we'll make the best informed step we can and that will illuminate the next moment in which we'll take another step. 00;38;29;15 - 00;39;04;15 Unknown And the ego kind of knew it was gotten in that, in that like when we go forward in action, each action creates new possibility, illuminates a new moment for us that if we had, it would not be eliminated. And I think the other awesome thing in that parable that is spoken about is that the other thing to be aware of is that in reality, beyond that light, beyond the moment, there isn't a forest, it's this giant universe watching, waiting, wanting to be like contributory in its response to the direction that we step. 00;39;04;18 - 00;39;34;04 Unknown So each step is a way, creating another whole realm of possibility in that quantum field of potential. It's responding to each action we take, each action is directional. So with both of those things, being aware of that, it's clear, like just move, just take action. Yeah. I, was listening to a podcast last year some time and it was this woman, forgive me, I can't remember her name, but she had researched and is successful entrepreneurs. 00;39;34;06 - 00;40;03;05 Unknown And she said one of I think in her mind, it was like the number one thing that she attributes to their success is their willingness to make decisions. And it's because they understand no matter which decision you make, there's going to be challenges and you'll figure out how to overcome. And like there's no decision that keeps you exempt from the unpredictable nature of life and business, and there's no decision that doesn't have challenges with it. 00;40;03;05 - 00;40;27;12 Unknown So they're willingness to make decisions quickly and move forward is allows them to do exactly what you're saying get traction, get more information. When I step into it. Then we get we get something happens and we get information. And so we can respond to that. And I love the analogy of that lantern. It's how I that analogy has served me really well in my own business. 00;40;27;12 - 00;40;46;00 Unknown Like, oh yeah, I don't need to know A to Z, I can just know a step into it and then I'll go to B and I'll see and you know we'll move on from there. Exactly. And that, you know, we don't need to know A to Z because in reality A to Z don't exist yet. You know, that's something beyond the moment. 00;40;46;02 - 00;41;07;07 Unknown Right? So it really doesn't exist yet. But the actions we seed and the one thing we have the moment is what actually generates A to Z. So we're creating it. It's not something that it's out there that we're trying to find our way to. It's doesn't exist yet. We are creating that through the actions we take in the moment. 00;41;07;07 - 00;41;33;08 Unknown Yeah, I feel like I need to rewind that. Just what you just said and that there's, you know, a few really powerful things in there that, you know, if we really saw that, the creating of it happens as we give ourselves permission to engage and to take the next step. And that the formula or the vision or the idea that we have, we know what A to Z is. 00;41;33;11 - 00;41;55;22 Unknown It can't be anything other than imagination, because we haven't created it yet. We haven't stepped into it yet and and it hasn't even been created. Right. It's everything beyond this moment is just this incredible field of potential in which we can create anything. But I remember hearing, an address by Steve Jobs where he spoke a little bit to this. 00;41;55;22 - 00;42;18;00 Unknown He said, you know, it's we can get scared of moving forward because we don't know how the next thing is going to connect to the next thing is going to be the next thing, because we look behind us and we see how all the dots connect. So we it kind of creates an illusion that there's all these already connecting dots in front of us, when in fact, like we're the ones who create those connecting dots and we're creating it as we go. 00;42;18;06 - 00;42;35;24 Unknown And I love that as an example, it's like there's the illusion because we do look behind us and we say, oh, look how everything lined up perfectly. So I have to figure out how everything lines up perfectly ahead of me, when the reason why they align is because we simply took action and took the next indicated action. The next indicated action. 00;42;35;28 - 00;43;04;05 Unknown Yeah. And it kind of coming back to what we were speaking to earlier, I think if we realized like a couple of things. One is where, okay, no matter what, I don't mean that like life doesn't get hard or complicated or challenging at times. But beneath that, beneath that, we're okay. Like we're okay no matter what. So if we see that, it allows us just to take that first step, maybe without knowing. 00;43;04;08 - 00;43;27;21 Unknown And then the other piece that I think is just really valuable in those things is like we're designed to rise to the occasion, but maybe we get information in real time, like wisdom, and we can't respond to what is otherwise. We're just respond. I mean, to, you know, we're either responding to where our imagination is taking us or we're in life responding to what? 00;43;27;21 - 00;43;50;09 Unknown Showing up. Yeah, we're we're responding to all too often to future catastrophes that haven't even happened or probably won't even ever happen. But we're responding in real time to that as opposed to what's present. You know, and I would say it's like, I wouldn't say we're more than okay. We are these limitless creators who are creating these incredible realities. 00;43;50;11 - 00;44;18;11 Unknown Right? And the worst thing that could happen is if because, you know, the the I'll call it like the the chief risk officer inside of us points to a, a possible trajectory that as a possible horrible outcome, says, well, let's stop everything because that's a possibility. That would be no way to run a business, and it's no way to create our reality as opposed to saying, you know, not only am I okay, but I'm a limitless creator and the universe is being created in response. 00;44;18;11 - 00;44;40;08 Unknown My universe is being created in response to the what I hold in my consciousness and the actions I take. So let me proceed with that. I think the ego and society at large has us buy into this idea that the universe is this fixed place, and it's almost like there's a circle with a bunch of marbles in it, and that's all the marbles there are. 00;44;40;10 - 00;45;03;22 Unknown So what's your strategy for grabbing as many marbles as you can? Because we need marbles as opposed to no. It's like the universe is being created as we go. We're creating the marbles. Like each choice we make needs, a decision we make in the now is what is determines. Like what are the future marbles in front of us that are going to be meant to help us with that, whatever we're creating. 00;45;03;25 - 00;45;27;11 Unknown And that's the way the universe really is. And whenever anyone starts to create from that perspective, that's when amazing things happen for them. Like all the leaders that really prolific leaders I know and creators I know, or people who operate from that consciousness, there's never a sense of, well, you know, well, my strategy, get them the marbles that are out there. 00;45;27;11 - 00;45;57;06 Unknown It's more like, this seems like a really exciting thing to do. That's going to align with what I think is, is like my aliveness in the world. Let me proceed with that and see what happens next. Yeah, yeah. Well, in it, it makes me think again that there are everything is, opportunity to evolve us and to wake us up more to who we are at our essential nature, more of possibility. 00;45;57;06 - 00;46;22;03 Unknown So you know that. And as you started the conversation with, you know, that decision around amputation and I woke you up to what's essential to you. It woke you up in an even more profound, real way about where you wanted to put that direction right, where you wanted to, what you wanted to back, and what you didn't want to back. 00;46;22;05 - 00;46;41;22 Unknown Absolutely. You know, got me more connected to what my criteria is, you know, for me and my create like, I, you know, I go back to because no one's ever said this better than Howard Thurman. But, you know, that's not what the world needs. Ask what brings you alive and go do it. Because what the world needs is more people brought alive. 00;46;41;24 - 00;46;59;25 Unknown There it is for me. If I probably ask the question at that moment, like, well, what does the world need? The world needs someone with two legs and an eye. But no, it's like, what brings me alive is this frontier of creation that is really exciting to me. And so, you know, for me it was a very simple thing. 00;46;59;25 - 00;47;36;19 Unknown Then, like, I want to be involved with that and it that had me double down on that criteria so that now as I look it through everything in my life, it's like, well, what's my criteria? Like, what am I here to do? What am I here to be? What am I being brought alive every day? Which of these choices lets me feel more aliveness and being willing to take choose that, because even in what someone would call the like one of the more trying circumstances, an amputation, I discovered that that choice was still the most prolific and empowering choice I could have made. 00;47;36;19 - 00;48;03;13 Unknown I can now look at how the dots connect from that moment two years ago. And, you know, every day I'm just in gratitude that I actually chose what I did in that moment because of, you know, what I've been able to experience in the last two years that I wouldn't have been able to. Yeah, yeah. And that's the that's, I think, on offer for all of us as we sort of navigate the day to day, as well as some of those points where we might be in our life. 00;48;03;13 - 00;48;26;14 Unknown And so, you know, as we bring this convert sensation to a close, I can just see that maybe the invitation of this conversation is what's ready to be let go. All right. Yeah. And it's alive. Yeah. What in your life when you just are really honest and look around. Feels like it's taking and draining more energy than it's giving? 00;48;26;14 - 00;48;49;25 Unknown What if you could, if anything was possible for you? If anything, if you are not beholden to anything, what would you let go of if that was true? Because that will tell you exactly. Probably what you should be letting go of now. Or can I should say. Yeah, well, thank you so much, Kirk. I know we could keep going, but I want to just give you an opportunity. 00;48;49;25 - 00;49;28;04 Unknown I think you've shared so many nuggets and so many really great opportunities for us to all reflect. And I'm. Is there anything you'd like to say in closing? Well, I think the you know, the bottom line, I know it's this is true for you and it's true for me. Barb, because you and I talk about it a lot is if we dare to spend some time instead of focusing on the outside and focusing on circumstances, if we dare to take some time and to even give ourselves, like, create this self honoring choice of looking inside and giving us the space to examine kind of what inside of me? 00;49;28;06 - 00;49;52;01 Unknown Where do I feel that aliveness? Where do I feel that deeper sense of peace and wisdom? And what if I ran the experiment, for the next period of time, next month, next six months, next year to to choose from that, to choose from that truth, from that space, and just to run the experiment to see how does life go when you give yourself that space. 00;49;52;02 - 00;50;04;27 Unknown Great, I love it. Perfect place to end. Thank you so much for being here with me today, Kirk. I appreciate you so much. I appreciate you too, Barb. It's always, a total joy to to talk with you anytime. 00;50;04;27 - 00;50;25;04 Unknown As always, thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this podcast, it would mean a lot to us. If you could take a moment to first subscribe and follow wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Hitting the follow button means you'll never miss a show. All you have to do is hit the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. 00;50;25;07 - 00;50;45;25 Unknown While you're there, if you like what you're hearing, we'd appreciate you taking a moment to give us a shout out and review. Most importantly, however, if you know anyone that would benefit from this episode, please pass it along. And finally, if you'd like to learn more about my work in Reverse Academy or upcoming events, you can check out my website at Barbara patterson.com. 00;50;45;28 - 00;50;56;21 Unknown You'll find some great resources, classes and videos, and a lot more. Thank you again for being here. See you next time.